I had a random thought which is completely off topic of what you guys are talking about (as usual) So I decided to post it. I was at the hair dressers today when I was looking around and I realized that every person I was looking at was distinctly unique. There was a chinese guy about in his mid-20's sitting and getting his hair done and I watched him and thought about how he went to school had freinds and has a whole lifes story behind him that none of us will ever know. He couldve done great things for people and he couldve done bad things for people but to us he is just another anonymous dude getting his hair done. I realized that celebrities are the ones who seem to write long autobiographies, and then there are the average people like Jonathan who just get some urge (or have some extreme narcissism...just kidding Jon lolol) to tell their life story. I find it interesting because we depend on history for everything we know about the past. We depend on word of mouth. But everything that hasnt been told to us and everything that has been "taken to the grave" will never ever be known save to the person who died with it. Your parent or your grandparent couldve achieved something you would have found incredible but if they dont tell you this then they have no way of knowing and in your mind they're nothing out of the ordinary. When I was a baby I used to cry like a beeeyatch, all the time. My mom said that she walked around with me to calm me down, she said she walked until her arms nearly fell off. Now I could never have known this and appreciated this until she told me about it because I had no idea. People cant share their struggles unless they let others know about them. And to remind others of what you've done is sometimes taken as selfish "I sacrificed so much for you" Its as though theyre supposed to recognize this and then repay you in kind. Think of all the sacrifices that our parents have all made when they had us and the fact that we will never know some of the things they had to give up and the pain that may have caused them. I also found it interesting how one of the people cutting hair was in his 50's. I found it interesting because this person had been alive longer than I had and he had seen things that I hadnt. I wasnt born when he was a young man, and he had to find his way in this world himself. I just find it fascinating that he was witness to things that I wasnt witness to because I wasnt even alive. Its almost surreal. anyways thats my drivel for now.

we're starting to draw closer towards that fine line between "discussion" and "debate".

i would disagree with Jon about it being pointless to debate personal opinions or tastes. anything can be debated upon, as long as there are differences in opinion. only when we get to nitpicky things, like whether or not vocals make or break a musical, or whether or not lyrics make or break a song, does it become pointless to DEBATE anything, because different aspects of the whole product will matter more to each individual.. but it sure doesn't making it pointless to DISCUSS. i'd like to hear why Grant feels that lyrics can ruin songs, but i'm not gonna refute him on it, cuz it probably matters to him more than it matters to me. and i'm sure he won't refute me on why the vocals in Moulin Rouge, though it being a beautiful movie, still left a distaste in my mouth, because vocals matter to me more than they do him.

Ok Grant, so you think art is the sum of parts. No one said that Moulin Rouge sucked. So everyone agrees that Moulin Rouge as art in the sum of its part, was GOOD. I don't see why you're trying to stress this point. Nobody is disagreeing with you. Karen liked Moulin Rouge and so did I. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the vocals weren't great. And nobody said that the vocals being bad made it a bad movie. It's being able to take something that we think is good and admit that flaws DO exist. But did we ever assert that that flaw ruined the entire movie the way you seem to think Bryan Adam's lyrics ruined the entire song?

Even if we look at Bryan Adam's song within the context of it being the sum of its parts, it still makes it pointless to debate on. Nothing came out of that debate. You still think it's a bad song because the lyrics were bad. Is that in any way modified from what you thought before? No. In the same instance, I still think it's a good song regardless of his bad lyrics (and you still need to explain to me why they're so bad). Is that in any way modified from what I thought before? Again, no.

Things that are a matter of purely personal tastes is something I often find pointless to debate on. You can argue the mechanics of something or you can argue interpretations of something, but arguing if a song is good or bad is almost like arguing about say whether or not tomatoes taste good or bad. Food is a prime example. If I think tomatoes taste nice and someone else thinks they taste bad, there's absolutely no point debating about whether or not tomatoes taste good or bad because it's a matter of personal taste. Something like a song is the same thing. Tomatoes appeal to our tastes, a song appeals to our ears. So if I think a song sounds good and someone else thinks a song sounds bad, it's a standpoint that depends largely on how your brain interprets what you hear. If Karen thinks the vocals are weak and Grant does not, what is the point of contention? If you break it down into mechanics, then yes, Karen is right. But if Grant's ears don't hear that weakness, that's hardly going to matter to him. That's why I think it's pointless, especially when we all agree that it was a good movie overall.